Establishing a swarm with or without a queen

[rjoki]

I finally got brave and gathered my first swarm last week. It was heading into the small hole inside an enclosed wine barrel that the donors didn't want to cut into, but it also had a nice large clump hanging on the side of the barrel. ( I wonder if the queen would have naturally gone into the hole FIRST, or would have been in the larger clump hanging on the outside of the barrel. )

I collected the entire large clump, and tried to add a few others strays that came out from the hole, but couldn't get all of them out. The owners of the barrel taped up the hole and only a handful of bees continued to sit outside their barrel for a couple of days, then dissipated for good.

I never saw the queen in the clump when I installed them at home into a partially drawn deep - and I added a frame or two of various capped and uncapped brood from one of my strong hives. I didn't have my brush close by, so I made what I realized later was a mistake by shaking the bees off the brood frames before I combined them with the swarm. I shook it hard enough for some of the nectar to rain out before I realized that was dumb.

The swarm built comb and ate syrup and pollen patty for the four or five days, but the second time I went to fill the feeder I was surprised to find that they weren't taking any syrup - although they were still building comb and covering the merged brood frames nicely. Not many bees are flying to and from the newly formed hive, so I switched from a frame feeder to a top feeder in case that was a problem.

The two frames of merged capped brood were still full and nicely formed (but I cant say that I know if I killed the brood when I shook it or not). I kept my inspection short and cant say that I found fresh eggs or not as I was worried about such a major disruption only a week or so after installing them. I also didn't see a queen, but that's par for the course with my eyesight - (and I have relied on seeing fresh eggs in a good pattern as my usual way to know if I'm queen-right or not in my other hives.)

I decided (right or wrong) to order a fresh queen from Ruhl's which I am picking up this morning. My thought is that I am investing $20 into giving the colony a chance. My theory is: if there is no queen, a week and a half of queenlessnes might not have made enough laying workers to cause an automatic assassination of the introduced queen. On the other hand, if the swarm is queen-right after all - and they kill my new queen, then the colony will go about it's business with the existing queen, and the only thing I'm out is the $20. I'm going to introduce her in the cage with the candy plug, and see if the swarm lets her out or not.

I'm sure that there are several things wrong with this plan, but I'm not sure what they are - lol

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and experience about adding a queen to a collected swarm at this late of a date, and without really knowing if the old queen came along or not.

Thanks again to all for your good advice.

[beehaver]

If they where queenless, but you gave them a frame of brood and eggs then they would not ever develop a laying worker as long as they have brood. And if they where queenless they should have started making a queen from the eggs you gave them.......hope that makes sense

[rjoki]

Thanks Beehaver - I did a very very intrusive inspection yesterday before deciding to go ahead with the new queen cage. i figured that if I found a queen I could pinch her and still wait 24 hours to install the fresh one. I found that some of the capped brood had hatched, and some was still capped, but that there were no uncapped brood or eggs at all. A few drone cells, but not enough to know if they are new from this week, or were already on the frames. Perhaps it's that I did shake the frames too hard as I realized how dumb that was as soon as I did it. I might not have given them a viable choice for rearing a queen. There was one small round "dime sized" queen cell unopened, and a large "peanut cell" that was already there when I put the frame in last week. The large one had previously opened, but I hoped that the cell itself might give them the idea if they didn't already have one in the swarm. I knocked both of those off this time, and put them all back into a new deep so I could make triple sure that the queen wasn't along for a ride (I think). When I put the new queen cage in, there was no agressive pile of bees, just a few curious ones that climbed on the cage from the adjoining older brood frames that i surrounded the queen with. I did't confuse it further by adding any other new brood and eggs from another hive (might be a mistake - but it felt right at the time). I filled a top feeder to the brim, added some pollen patty, closed up the top, and now I hope for the best.

My new deep has a 3/4" hole near the top for a second entry, and my inner cover also has an entry slot cut in. I currently have the bottom entry fully open as well. The bees are already flying in and out, which is a good sign - but I'm wondering if I've given them too many entry holes to defend. I might decided to at least plug up the round hole as it's also pretty close to the new queen's cage.

I will resist any urge to peak for a week to see if she is released, and then wait a couple of weeks to look deeper for fresh eggs.

Wondering what experienced queen keepers think about all this. Is it like p__ing in the wind - or am I on the right track ?