Depopulating & Organic Beekeeping

[Thom]

There Drew, I gave you two. Now quit crying...baby...

[drew]

Wow! thanks man, I take back all those bad things I've said

[NormCounterman]

?? What ??
Always mean what you say!
Say what you mean!
Then you dont go around taking things back!
That just cost ya one.

;D Normy ;D

[Bettis]

I appreciate Thom's ideal of not having chemicals in your hives. The hang-up I have is that you are dependent on someone else for bees and their chemical use.

I find it hard to believe that National Organic Plan would allow antibiotic use. If you don't like Tilth you can use any other acredited certifer.

Depopulating is not something new I understand the Canadian's did it on a grand scale back when they could get packages from the U.S.

These questions of cruelity to bees I find humorous.

When making normal hive manipulations bees are killed, it is nearly unavoidable. Is that cruel?

What about killing queens for replacement. Is that cruel?

By extension is it cruel to drive your car through the Columbia Gorge during the summer? Bug massacre...

Bettis

[unjeff]

re: antibiotic use on hives, I chatted with John Foster at Oregon Tilth this afternoon and he said that while homeopathic remedies were allowable, synthetic antibiotics are not.

[columbiacritter]

I'm not after karma I'm after bees so I will turn the subject back to organic beekeeping and depopulating.

Tom, if you depopulate ad have to start with fresh bees every spring are you getting them from an organic source?

I know the antibiotics and other chems won't last in the hive over the amount of time between starting and harvesting, but it still seems so unorganic to buy treated bees. When I plant organic veggies I start with untreated organic seed. It seems a hive should be the same way.

Can we control mite infestations with organic methods, if we are willing to do the work, enough to overwinter a healthy colony most years?

BTW I am trying really, really hard to find a way to make it to your bee school in November. Are there scholarships for the poor?

[Thom]

I normally overwinter one hive. This year it will be three. They clean up my comb after extraction and they get all the uncapped comb. I don't medicate them. Sometimes they make it, sometimes they don't. I had one hive finally die after three years.

I get my bees from George Hansen, who tells me he doesn't medicate his bees after he makes splits and nucs. I place his comb with the brood above the queen excluder and after those bees hatch out I burn the comb and replace it with nine frames of my comb. Within six weeks all the bees have been replaced by bees raised on non-medicated comb.

Scholarships may be available through your local bee club. I know the OSBA gave a scholarship to each branch association. If you can't make it there will be bee schools next winter and spring. I usually do in in Astoria and one in Bend, but this year I was talking with the folks in Coos Bay that want a class, so I may take a year off from Astoria and Bend. But there were a couple people who wanted one in Rainer or Scapoose last year. There is a Tech at Valley Vet who I corresponded with. If you can get ten people together I will be happy to come up with my dog and pony show. We just need a room with electricity and some tables and chairs. The class I do is six hours long.

[columbiacritter]

I bow down to you Thom, you are truly a Bee God! ;D

[Thom]

Norm Counterman is the true Bee God.

[willowlady]

Does anyone here use the Warre hive concept? I'm very interested in this idea, since non-interference for healthy bee population was why I started keeping bees in the first place. Thanks for any input.

[drew]

Is this the hive with the looking glass on the side so you don't have to take frames out?

If so, what can you really tell is going on without seeing the inside of the comb??

Hive inspections do not have to be intrusive, short and sweet.

[michelleb at large]

Here's some info on Warre hives:
warre.biobees.com

My gut reaction is to disagree with depopulation, but so many human reactions are based on emotion and, being a chick and all, well...I'll just keep it to myself.

For example, for the past couple years I've raised baby quail from egg. Coddled them, cuddled them, enjoyed their eggs, sang stupid songs about and to them, then...chopped off their wee fluffy heads and cooked them up, yum at the end of the season.

Livestock is traditionally harvested in the Fall, when feed-to-meat ratios go out of favor (age, available forage/graze being a factor).

For me, overwintering bees is part of the hobby, and yeah, I'm tougher on some of my colonies--on purpose--to see who will come out on top the following Spring. But my goals are different than yours.

Thom two of your students told me that one of your reasons for depopulation is economics---not needing to feed/leave marketable honey/medicate.

Just sayin', but if you want to donate those bees to a beekeeper who has an outyard where meds are never used, and the surviving stock will be propagated, you know how to reach me! Save you some soap money.

[bugleman]

Willow Lady,

I know a young fellow (mid 20s) , over by Gaston, who is really big on Warri hives. He is building them to sell. Send me a pm if you are interested in his contact info.

[Thom]

Michelle, on the surface I do get to keep more honey and I save money on medication, but also consider that I get my equipment out of the rain for the winter. I don't have to buy new queens every spring and hope they take.

Most of all the reason I suggest this technique of hobby beekeepers is because of all the times I've seen inexperienced beekeepers (and experienced ones) misuse medications. By not following directions to the letter mites have built up resistance to just about every medication we were using five years ago, rendering them useless.

It may seem like small potatoes, but if you don't use fumagillin properly like make the solution too weak, too strong, or let it run out leaving days between doses, Nosema starts building a resistance to the drug. Guess what they are finding in colonies that died because of CCD? Nosema apis, and Nosema ceranae among other bee maladies. Is resistance to fumagillin to blame? I think it is. I suggest depopulation to prevent the advancement of even worse problems that will come about because people not taking medication seriously. By the way medication should be administered no later than August 1st. How many people miss that deadline just so they can get just a little more cured honey?

The expense to you driving to Astoria to get ten colonies that you will have to medicate late (adding to the resistance) and feed through the winter and requeen in the spring...well it's is better economically to buy healthy nucs in the spring.

[columbiacritter]

Unjeff, I agree with your reasons for askign your questions. Like you I am a relative newbie and am open to hearing everyones opinions even if I don't agree with them. I've taken classes from Thom twice now and learned a huge amount each time.

Depopulation isn't something I want to do. Honestly, if it was my only option I would probably give up keeping all together. I'm to much of a wuss about my critters even if they are just wads of bugs to be comfortable killing them. My goal is to have long term populations with the absolute minimum of chemicals.

In the other direction I've listened to lectures from highly experienced beeks who dump HUGE amounts of chemiclas and drugs into their hives. I find that direction even more disagreeable than depopulation. Some how the statement that formic aicd is harmless doens't jivewhen the guy telling you that goes on to say all the paint blistered off his truck bed from it.

I'm just going to keep reading and asking questions while I find my own way even if that means making all the newbie mistakes. As for karma, well, I keep pissing Thom off so I figure I'm screwed until my next life