Depopulating & Organic Beekeeping

[unjeff]

What thought do folks have on "depopulating" hives (i.e., killing all the bees) at the end of a season as an "organic" beekeeping technique? I realize that this touches dangerously near quibbling over semantics, but I'm curious (and I think semantic quibbling can be fun sometimes).

I ask because I'm curious if one buying organic honey should presume certain harm-minimizing practices of hive managment were used in honey collection.

Are there standards for "cruelty-free" hive management? What might those look like?

Thanks!

(Thom, looking forward to reading your comments!)

[drew]

Oh ya Thom is your man for this one ;D

[Thom]

First, becomming certified organic you can't use any plastic in you hive at all. This means no plastic feeders, no plastic coated foundation or frames. Your boxes must be painted with no-toxic paint and no parafin dipping allowed. Oregon Tillth needs to survey a two mile circle around your bee yard to make sure there are no dumps, petrolium facilities or crop spraying. Oddly you are allowed to use antibiotics??? Go figure...

I treat with no chemicals and without medications bees will often get sick and die a miserable death. Disease will spread to healthy colonies because of robbing. I find it less harsh to kill the bees when their population is low in the fall then it is to watch them die from having all their juices sucked by mites and being infected with totally miserable things such as KBV.

[Electric Herb]

I did read somewhere in the requirements to be certified as organic that depopulation was not allowed. I will have to dig up the source, but it was in either American Bee Journal or Bee Culture.

[Thom]

Probably true. I don't recall seeing that in the rules at Oregon Tilth, which is the Organic Certifying agency in Oregon. Oddly they do allow the use of antibiotics which totally counters my idea of what organic is.

How can one have organic honey if antibiotics are being used. Finding illegal antibiotics in the honey from China shut down their industry a few years ago. If you treat bees it will get in the honey.

Needless to say, I am not a big fan of Oregon Tillth.

[NormCounterman]

TroubleSwitch is right!
The day that I allow a pack of hippies to micromanage my farm will be a cold day in #&!!.
Just sell it as Raw Pure Local Honey.
Let someone else dangle from the puppet strings.
You will sell more honey doing what you do best:
Keeping bees!
;D Normy ;D

[unjeff]

Thanks for all of your comments! There's a wide spectrum of beekeepers and many different and equally valid reasons for having bees. As my partner reminds me, our society has come to expect certain things of bees (pollinating on a large scale and lots of available honey) and certain practices are used to keep up with those expectations (like antibiotic use and perhaps depopulation). I do believe that depopulating is less an argument on the side of compassion and more on the side of increased income from honey sales. But, I have to also say that as a honey consumer, I'll want to know if a beekeeper depopulates. If so, I'll be more inclined to buy from someone local who uses organic methods (not necessarily certified -- think we agree that's a complicated issue and doens't always benefit the folks it should), doesn't employ antibiotics (as Thom points out is an important point) and doesn't depopulate annually. I'm thankful for Thom for helping me understand the concept better.

[Claude Hachey]

Whew!! Bad time to start a Karma war Unjeff with one in the bank. I'll give ya one for guts. Taking on Thom on the sixth post! He is slowly changing his ways though - never heard if he managed to overwinter. The silence is deafening.

His depopulation philosophy does remind me of getting whacked by my Dad - "This hurts me more than it hurts you" or "This is for your own good".

[unjeff]

It really wasn't my intention to offend -- I posted b/c I earnestly wanted to learn more about what this community had to say on a topic that was new and interesting to me. I went to Thom's workshop hoping to learn more and have my amateur assumptions challenged. Having attended the workshop, I can say that I found him to be thoughtful and his experience substantial (and moreover an enjoyable way to spend a day -- I've recommended his class to others). As he seemed to have the most thoroughly articulated thoughts on depopulation (and was the one who introduced the topic to me), I hoped he'd add his comments so others would understand what I was referencing. I didn't get the sense that he was someone who would be offended by my posting -- certainly wasn't my m.o.

Could you explain this "one in the bank" business? Is my continued participation in this forum contingent upon something I'm unaware of?

[Claude Hachey]

Lighten up Unjeff - I am just a crazy Canuck beek who likes "Yank"in chains. ;D Pulling your leg. Couldn't help it - you sounded so cerebral and I do enjoy rattling Thom's cage once in a while. It is part of my quest to one up him which has been a dismal failure so far as he holds the keys to the Karma. I once ended up at minus 200.
That's what "one in the bank" refers to. If you like or agree with someone's post, you "exalt" which gives the poster a Karma point. If you don't like what was said, you "smite" which removes a karma. By the way, Thom has 102 Karmas so I figured you could use one extra so I exalted you which brought you to 2.
Organic honey production is a hot and debatable subject with a wide variety of views. As a member of PETA (People for the Tasty Eating of Animals), I choose to remain out of the fray and work with the bees to produce a product that is safe,tasty,natural and wholesome. Once the debate degrades into whether it is cruel and non organic to clip the wings of a queen to prevent swarming or to mark her thorax with paint to identify her age, it becomes time to move on and to change the subject. Is it cruel to swat a mosquito that is sucking up your blood and possibly injecting you with the West Nile Virus? Is it cruel to have varroa mites slowly suck the life out of a colony of bees or is it kinder to end their "suffering"? Tough questions that will remain a matter of personal choice

[Thom]

No offence taken, Unjeff.

I tried to overwinter two colonies without medication this year. One didn't make it, but the one I've been overwintering for three years is doing well.

There are a lot of problems keeping bees, and every year I am less inclined to keep it all going, but I continue to do it. It is easier than disappointing all my honey buyers.

Just like every year I swear I will no longer do a bee school, but I keep doing them as well.

It would be ideal to overwinter, but I just don't want those poisons in my hive, organic acids included. I'm glad you have an open mind about it all. I've had people walk out on my class because of my practice of depopulation, that's why I save that portion for the end of the class. Moosehead summed it up pretty well in his last post.

Board Karma is pretty cool. It is a reward for those who are good or say things that sound good to you. There used to be a lot of karma sniping here when members get into a spat, but these passionate folks have been keeping a low profile lately. I'm adding a point to yours. Mooseheads deserves one as well, but he's swimming in Karma.

[Claude Hachey]

Oh great!! Why don't you out me Thom!!

[Thom]

Out you? How? Have a karma point and be quiet...

[drew]

I dare to differ on the karma, I lay awake at night wondering if I offended someone and they will strip me of my loved karma points. Who cares if the bills are paid I WANT KARMA ;D

[unjeff]

Lightening up as I type, Claude. Yeah, my tone in text can come off mighty tight-arsed, I admit it. Thanks for humoring the newbee, fellas. Still jazzed to be here.